Whats next for Renoise?


(Gavin Graham) #141

I believe they would have to pay a good portion of loot for licensing that #algorithm into renoise,

which would also make the price rise for a good amount.

Even this would indeed be a fine add, it might not exactly fit into the legacy and agenda of the dev - team & its chief rocker Taktik…

who is currently #mia while working on another very interesting software, which also would be a huge update in renoise.

You can find a bit of info on it in this #thread; interesting stuff.

Waveform has it and its only $30 more. And it comes with Melodyne. And HiDPI and this that and the other thing. Yes, I’m getting bitter! haha

Seriously though, my intent it not to sledge Renoise. Quite the opposite really. I’m being critical because I wanna see it grow.


(GUEST:::El°HYM) #142

No worries; me would luv 2 see sum legit #realtime algo implemented into renoise. Also paying a few buckz more 4 this, would be no prob.

Waveform has it and its only $30 more. And it comes with Melodyne. And HiDPI and this that and the other thing. Yes, I’m getting bitter! haha

Seriously though, my intent it not to sledge Renoise. Quite the opposite really. I’m being critical because I wanna see it grow.


(Rpnz) #143


(Zer0 Fly) #144

I am drunk, still I cannot forget…


(The Empty Self) #145

Oh you mustn’t have got the memo. Apparently Renoise is complete, finished and perfect and with this knowledge, we are all wasting our time here and should instead be making music with the most complete, finished & perfect tracker that exists today and ever will. :dribble: :dribble: :dribble:

i’m asking cause i noticed the other day that reaper uses it …and the discounted license its $60

also Flstudio uses Elastique


(ABįSƧȔš ṼØȊÐƎ) #146

Introducing MEOWNOISE!!! The world’s first cat tracker!!!


(Gavin Graham) #147

i’m asking cause i noticed the other day that reaper uses it …and the discounted license its $60

also Flstudio uses Elastique

That’s true. I though of that after I posted. So I doubt it would change pricing for Renoise too much but even if Renoise was $100, I would still buy it. Shove Elastique in, bump the version to 5, invalidate our free upgrade for one full version. I’d STILL buy it! - And I say that as someone who is becoming a more harsh critic everyday.


(GUEST:::El°HYM) #148

Somehow I dont see this coming as a #native feature though. Maybe its an option to make this a first payed upgrade #tool, though?..which me isnt to sure about too, as I dont know if this even would be possible.

That’s true. I though of that after I posted. So I doubt it would change pricing for Renoise too much but even if Renoise was $100, I would still buy it. Shove Elastique in, bump the version to 5, invalidate our free upgrade for one full version. I’d STILL buy it! - And I say that as someone who is becoming a more harsh critic everyday.


(ffx) #149

Next will be a permanent ban of the amen bros army from the internet.


(Rpnz) #150

25-lettuce-cat-kitten-fails.jpg


(thalamus) #151

For me it’s more about the devs opening up about their aspirations for Renoise, rather than a stone cold roadmap that we expect to be executed.

I’d just really like to know if the devs still have any appetite for the evolution of Renoise and maybe some words about their current projects. Just a bit of transparency and good will really because I think the community comes from a cool place and there is a lot of mutual respect.


(Gavin Graham) #152

For me it’s more about the devs opening up about their aspirations for Renoise, rather than a stone cold roadmap that we expect to be executed.

I’d just really like to know if the devs still have any appetite for the evolution of Renoise and maybe some words about their current projects. Just a bit of transparency and good will really because I think the community comes from a cool place and there is a lot of mutual respect.

100% this.

Community engagement is important. It shows that users are important, helps drive expanding the user base and keep people connected to and enthused with future developments. Anyone who think community engagement isn’t necessary needs to study marketing for at least a semester (or just a week - to get a clue)

A quick comparison (rough stats) of similarly priced DAWs:

Reaper: New versions consistently, Devs post daily. Listens to the community regarding bugs and features for the next version. You can see from their forum profile that they were last online ‘today’

Waveform: New versions consistently. Devs post daily.Listens to the community regarding bugs and features for the next version. You can see from their forum profile that they were last online ‘today’

Renoise: Last update 2 years 1 (maybe 2 bug fixes notwithstanding), No recent posts. Can’t even tell you if the main Dev looks at the forum since his ‘last online’ in his profile is set to ‘private’.

Let’s say I was just starting out and shopping around for a DAW. My criteria narrowed it down the the three aforementioned products. I WOULD be concerned as a potential new user about how engaged the devs are but I probably wouldn’t even go as far as finding out how engaged they are when I read on the products website that the latest update was two years ago.

As a potential new customer, that would be where I stopped because I haven’t yet bought and would not feel invested to pour through forums and the like to see what the story is. Maybe I would since my criteria mandates Linux support so I have narrow options but you Windows/OSX users have a plethora of competing products so I could imagine that you would just move on.

I’ve got more to say that I’ve kept bottled-up for some time. Yes they are criticisms but don’t get me wrong, I’ve used Renoise for 5 years and make 7 albums with it - I love it. It’s because I love it I feel obliged to be critical and being critical, as opposed to sledging can help it grow new features and fixes at the least. It’s like as an Australian patriot I feel its my duty to hold my government accountable for what they do to the country I love. I am a Renoise patriot too.

I do have some critical words for this community too, unfortunately.

When people ask about new releases and features, they are often retorted with a paraphrase of “spend your time better by making music with it than asking (complaining)”. That’s not helpful advice. It’s not like the people asking are consumed with their post and halt being productive. It’s dismissive to respond that way. Luckily for me and being around these forums long enough, I get the in-joke of cat pictures and yeah, it’s cools by me - but - imagine a new user coming into a thread about the future of the product to see it end up in a spray of cat pictures, it somewhat says “We’ve given up on asking about the products future”. Turning this thread into cat pics is counter productive. The communityis working against the product they love. To flip things around, wouldn’t you be better of being productive in Renoise than wasting your time posting cat pictures? Hehehe. :)Oh that’s right, you can do BOTH!!!

My personal conclusion is that since the Renoise devs can’t be arsed in talking to us, they don’t really care about us which is probably an indicator that they don’t particularly care about their product either. I mean, I spent maybe 20 minutes writing this so that isn’t going to throw my life’s schedule into chaos. If the Devs cared, you would think they could afford 20 minutes (at least once) to say something about the state of things. Would it kill them to do so? I don’t think so, in fact a bit more involvement may halp sales eventually and more sales translates into more development effort - if they cared.

Instead of saying/thinking “don’t bother asking” about the product. This should be a call to arms. We should rally and demand our devs to get on-board with us - even if its just to say “Hi!”.

This product and community will (and is) slowly atrophy as time marches on and the product starts to look more defunct. Do you want that? No you don’t! Round up the troops!

Cheers,

Gavin

Btw, I’m happy to reply to any comments or challenges to my post as long as they aren’t shitposts and offer some form of reasonable thought.


(The_Traveler) #153

This product and community will (and is) slowly atrophy as time marches on and the product starts to look more defunct.

Well, it depends on how you wish to look at it. I’ve seen, as I’m sure many have, that some communities and products simply “find their level” and persist. Wings3d http://www.wings3d.com/ is one I can think of. A really excellent 3D modeler, never been mainstream, been around for years, and gets updates very occasionally. However, it has a dedicated community that does what this one does, creates tools, chats and contributes, etc. and keeps it alive. MilkyTracker http://milkytracker.titandemo.org/ is alive 20+ years on and still being used. The point, as I see it, is that if an application fits someone’s needs, they’ll stick with it regardless of how many updates it gets or “bells and whistles” people say it needs. Personally, I think Renoise is in that category. It’s a very capable tracker. OpenMPT for example, while capable, gets regular updates sure. But, until OpenMPT fulfills a need that I can’t get with Renoise, I stick with Renoise and use it in the domain it was intended for. :slight_smile:

Cheers.


(Gavin Graham) #154

Well, it depends on how you wish to look at it. I’ve seen, as I’m sure many have, that some communities and products simply “find their level” and persist. Wings3d http://www.wings3d.com/ is one I can think of. A really excellent 3D modeler, never been mainstream, been around for years, and gets updates very occasionally. However, it has a dedicated community that does what this one does, creates tools, chats and contributes, etc. and keeps it alive. MilkyTracker http://milkytracker.titandemo.org/ is alive and well. The point, as I see it, is that if an application fits someone’s needs, they’ll stick with it regardless of how many updates it gets or “bells and whistles” people say it needs. Personally, I think Renoise is in that category. It’s a very capable tracker. OpenMPT for example, while capable, gets regular updates sure. But, until OpenMPT fulfills a need that I can’t get with Renoise, I stick with Renoise and use it in the domain it was intended for. :slight_smile:

Cheers.

Ok sure, I see your point. May I counterpoint and see what you think.

We all (well, most of us) always try to improve ourselves. We grow upwards and strive to improve in our careers, hobbies, fitness, our art, and of course our music. It’s a trait for us all to want to do better.

Now I can’t speak of Wings3D directly but I could imagine that some people started with it and then since it hasn’t got new features, they’ve moved on to another package that grows with them.

Wings and Renoise will always find new users to replace them as the feature set suits them initially but some of them may move on to as they outgrow it.

My point there is that it can seem like a stable community in terms of numbers but that relies on turnover or user churn.

I, for one, had to look elsewhere because although I did 7 albums with Renoise, It’s just not fulfilling my needs anymore. I recently read a comprehensive review of another DAW where the reviewer states the same for them as to why they (totally) dropped Renoise. Press like that is not a good look for this awesome software. Surely you agree. :slight_smile:

Wouldn’t it be great if user retention was more of a thing. That way the product and community grows instead of maintain a status-quo. Though Renoise will always appeal to a niche, it could go beyond that niche and we all benefit by a growing user community.

Again, the flip-side is this hypothetical: Those mainstream DAWs (and I could kinda see Reaper pulling this stunt if they wanted) just need to add a tracker view and boom, I would think that Renoise would shrink considerably quickly and users could have more of everything in the other DAW.

Besides, Renoise staying the same just smacks of a lack of ambition, I’m sorry to say. Isn’t ambition the reason why we all strive to improve?

Ok, shoot! haha. :slight_smile:


(The_Traveler) #155

Ok Gavin, I’ll counterpoint, your counterpoint. :slight_smile:

It’s just not fulfilling my needs anymore.

Right here. I contend that most applications have a “usable domain” in which they fulfill both an end-user’s needs and the software developer’s needs. If the two “needs requirement” remain collateral, then “success” for both is prolonged. I think of Reaper which gets a steady stream of updates and thus satisfies both the user base and developers. If either the end-user or the software creator doesn’t see the software satisfying their need(s), perhaps it lacks a feature for the end-user or it’s a developmental dead-end for the software developer, OR in the case of the developer, it DOES satisfy their need (reaches end-cycle and they don’t see any need to further develop their software, met a sales goal, etc.) then it’s natural to seek an alternative. Self improvement can certainly be considered here.

Having been a software programmer and developer for over 30 years in a number of usage domains, I can see a lot of reasons why the Renoise developers would, for the most part, discontinue active development. I also understand dedicated users who wish to see programs continue to evolve, have new features added, gain market share, enhanced community involvement and growth and so on.

Though Renoise will always appeal to a niche, it could go beyond that niche and we all benefit by a growing user community.

Perhaps. However, as you say, it’s a niche. Trackers were the mainstay for music composition on early computers for years, but other “styles” of DAWs evolved and trackers fell out of favor. Historically, we’ve never seen trackers regain that popularity. Of course, we can’t rule out a “Tracker Renaissance” in the future, which like most “renewed interest” events I believe would be somewhat short-lived. I contend that Renoise, in it’s present state, would be more than capable even then.

Cheers. :slight_smile:


(Gavin Graham) #156

Having been a software programmer and developer for over 30 years in a number of usage domains, I can see a lot of reasons why the Renoise developers would, for the most part, discontinue active development. I also understand dedicated users who wish to see programs continue to evolve, have new features added, gain market share, enhanced community involvement and growth and so on.

So, you are an IT pro of around the same vintage as myself. Nice! You would be acutely aware of scope-creep then when it comes to software. It’s generally a hard thing to push back against - though the Renoise developers have certainly got that under control. :slight_smile:

By and large, I think we’re pretty much in agreement on these points so there’s not much I have to add to your last post.

You do mention the software developers “needs requirement” which I would call their overarching goals or remit for their product. But there in part lies the problem with Renoise, we are in an information vacuum and we as paying customers don’t know even in a vague sense what the developers want to take this software - though the lack of updates or communication is probably a pretty good sign of that.

We seem to focusing in on new features for Renoise but that is not the entire story either. Even if the Devs see it in some way as being feature complete, there’s the fact that computers are changing and Renoise isn’t keep up and that can take it into obsolescence. For example, nowadays, all my screens are HiDPI and Renoise is looking terribly ‘squinty’ on these screens. I know there are work-arounds for this particular problem such as changing resolution or zooming DPI but they are nonetheless workarounds that come with a downside such as all my apps I have running while Renoise is open are affected and issues such as that.

So even current usability seems to be under threat. Also, we may reach a point where core OS-Level libraries such as LibSTDC may change to a point where breakage is inevitable. I don’t know. This 2nd example is a little over simplified and a tad alarmist, I know but the first example of DPI holds true today.

Plus, Renoise isn’t bug-free. No software is. At least other software (DAWs in this case) I have some confidence that their bugs will be remedied. With Renoise, it’s feeling a lot like “You’ve got what you’ve been given” and you’re lucky to get anything more. I know some fixes have happened but its that damn information vacuum that is killing me.

It’s not like I’ve totally given up on Renoise. There’s still many things I appreciate about it. For me, Redux is how I’m now using Renoise but that makes it more a supplementary than a primary tool.

I got one board with Tracktion with Waveform 8. Waveform 8 without Redux would not have been worth the switch over to it as W8 didn’t offer some key fucntionality that I was getting with Renoise/Redux.
Then Waveform 9 came out with a kick-arse Multi-sampler. I stull use Redux for some certain modulations and effects but largely its W9 on its own.
I can foresee when Waveform 10 arrives next year (yes major revision every year), even those edge cases that I rely on Redux for will most like have gone away and so my need for Redux could disappear.

This is part of it. as other DAWs grow, Renoise/Redux is just going to feel longer in the tooth. To me, at least.

Fun times. Renoise has been good to me. I still love it just the same.


(Raul (ulneiz)) #157

Some thoughts…

Well, we, have 3 persons that give support or help about Renoise (and Redux), although they did not participate directly in Renoise’s internal development: Achenar, DBlue and Danoise.Apparently Taktik was the only Renoise programmer.While he is not there, I do not think there’s any news.The direct conclusion is that, if there is no news to comment, it is because there is nothing new really. Renoise’s development is “on hold”.

I also understand that these three types can not provide any official information, despite being continually participating in the forums, in a kind of support or user help. In fact, I believe that, currently, it is thanks to these three people, these forums continue with some activity. Presumably Taktik, the chief here, is responsible for that hermetic environment of little or no information. As we all know, he is busy with another job, unrelated to Renoise.Until he comes back and has some contact in the forums, do not expect anything new.

I would say that there are three aspects related to the development of Renoise:

  1. Bug fix.The most serious and important of all.If a user detects a bug and describes it in the forums, it is not conceivable that it will take 2 years or more for someone to solve it. It’s too much time. For me it is the most important thing. There is no team of developers behind Renoise testing different scenarios to detect errors.This point is the one that indicates the greatest abandonment.
  2. Improve the characteristics that already exist. For example, drastically improve the automation editor, the editor of phrases (management of the same), review and improve the API available for tools as it is solved point 1 and a long list of details, which make it easier to driving.
  3. Remove certain feature that does not work at all well and add new features. That is, update Renoise to be more powerful and consistent with existing hardware. It is inconceivable that there are specific scenarios with a very powerful hardware where there are blockages, or some windows are locked, or that the GUI is not really fluid, rhythmically accompanied by the sound that is played.Here comes the issue of modernizing the Renoise GUI for high resolutions and removing BMP skins, upgrading to VST 3 and Renoise working fine with the plugin windows and things like that, which have a lot to do with the GUI in particular.

I think that Renoise’s team (that is, Taktik) has all this in their heads, but in a state of pause because they are involved in another matter.If you take into account everything that has happened up to now, the fact of creating Redux was already a bad sign for Renoise. It is time not invested in Renoise!After launching Redux, Taktik went to work on another program that is not Renoise.It seems obvious to think that something has happened so that Renoise is paralyzed (and they go two). For business, money, conformism, or just for fatigue, refresh the mind in something else.Some explanation will be.Although that to us in the background we do not care. We just want to know the current state of things.

At the same time there are still requests from specific users: pianoroll, audio waves, even converting entire Renoise into a VST (it seems that Redux is not enough for some). They are things that are a bit out of place.It would be more than enough with a normal development of Renoise: cover bugs, improve what already exists and finally add certain features, eliminating what does not work well.

But the situation apparentlyis this: Renoise 3.1 --> Redux --> Other project…You can draw your own conclusions.


(The_Traveler) #158

Good points gentlemen. Well, we find ourselves in the “wait and see” queue it appears. We know something is being done as we’ve seen the version bump to 3.1.1 for some bug fixes https://forum.renoise.com/t/3-1-1-bugfix-release/48248 which are always appreciated. ( Frankly, lack of bug squashing was my only real complaint with Renoise so I’m happy for now. ) :slight_smile:

Cheers.


(m.arthur) #159

I do have some critical words for this community too, unfortunately.

When people ask about new releases and features, they are often retorted with a paraphrase of “spend your time better by making music with it than asking (complaining)”. That’s not helpful advice. It’s not like the people asking are consumed with their post and halt being productive.

The problem here is that you’re re-contextualizing this type of behavior into a scenario that, for me, doesn’t match reality. I’m one of the posters who has made “spend your time making music…” comments, but I never did it in response to a well-meaning inquiry about the future development of the product.

When you re-contextualize it as you’ve done above, sure it seems like a useless comment to make. But in reality, I make this comment when certain forum members have decided that every thread needs to be about their already-stated anger and frustration regarding the lack of development. When people start hijacking threads and repeating themselves over and over again because they are angry, then the comment of “maybe focus on making better music instead of ranting endlessly about Feature X you still don’t have” makes a lot more sense.


(lettuce) #160

It would be great to have sampler - modulation - LFO cycles definable in ticks and lines…currently they can only be defined in beats and Hz.

I would really love to see the vibrato, tremelo and autopan commands creating cycles in time with song settings too.

Its a small thing but it would just be great for my purposes