I’m on OSX
had no issues with 2.x.x versions too.
Are audiotracks definitely going to happen someday? I want to stick with renoise only but its been a really long time, I was hoping version 3.0 would have audiotracks. Will there definitely be audiotracks one day?
We’ll never know until it maybe just shows up one day. Future features are never announced for Renoise as we can read in many threads around here.
I was very excited about 3.0 and the wait was really long.
I think I can present my idea, originally from the Pattern Matrix topic, into the matter regarding Audio Tracks as well. The picture is a reworked version of a picture from this thread(original by “BEEPER”, thank you and I hope that was OK since I agree on everything what you said in that topic).
1) The tracked patterns translated into “Waveforms” (perhaps the waveforms could be displayed iether pre or post with some other buttons!). The current Pattern Matrix is the “Blocks-button”. Which would be great is that you can also edit here, just like in the pattern editor.
2) The current view is horizontal (being able to switch to vertical view if that’s more your thing).
3) Pattern numbers-display.
4) Zoom, just like in the Sample Editor. And if there were more tracks, an vertical zoom as well would be handy of course.
5) Playback-display (transport). In this picture it shows the same line as in the pattern editor (everything else, track names etc, is quite synced as well I think).
6) Selected track. Lowest frame with inserts is now on the far left to vertically leave space for the overview of the song and the pattern info. You’ll get a better overview of all the inserts this way IMO, just like in the mixer view. Does anyone enjoy adding inserts horizontally? At least, I don’t. Regarding Automations, which also currently is placed in the lowest frame, could preferably be edited in the Waveforms-window with the waveforms being transparent to get better timing etc.
7) Plugin-browser. Or maybe the same menu could be accessed by a right click.
8) Single or a doubleclick an effect to attach and edit further.
The text beside the trackname; PMSR stands for Power*, Mute, Solo and Record.
- The Power-function could be another way to mute a track, but rather inactivate the plug-ins etc to save CPU power for instance.
Perhaps the visuals are not extremely pleasant but hopefully you’ll get the idea!
So, what do you think??
What about just displaying a pre-rendered waveform-view in the background of the automation graphical view, so you would get a visual feedback on parameter changes?
I know, most people who posted on this thread may hate me for the followingsentences, but:
- I don’t see any benefits of underlaid waveforms, on the contrary i guess they would be rather distracting (especially with many tracks). Look at the FL Studio videos, take the waveform displays from the Mixer and put them behind pattern tracks, add colors and imagine to edit/play this combination on some higher tempo…one word: epilepsy.
- There already is something like a freely placeable audio track in Renoise, just undock the sampler and activate “Autoseek”.
- If you would like to work with a horizontal linear layout, just get something like Reaper, “rewire” it and/or use Redux.
The only reason i see for “real” audio tracks are mass edits with a lot of recordings/takes/large samples, but that is what recording software are meant for (and not trackers), IMO.
First of all, no one is hating someone for expressing opinions for gods sake. Personally, I’d rather see replies like this than complete silence. Thumbs up!!
I agree regarding the distraction of underlaid waveforms in the Pattern Editor, but I won’t protest if it was implemented as an option along with a separate waveforms-view.
However, you might have a pretty narrow vision of the possibilities of audio-tracks. Here are some advantages:
(In case someone missed my old mockup:https://forum.renoise.com/t/brainstorming-audio-tracks/24794)
- A joint between Pattern Matrix and the suggested Audio Tracks will make sense, being able to switch between the two;
- The blocks view is handy for rougher edits in the overall arrangement/structure, presumed you are able to glue blocks.
- The Audio-Tracks view are also handy for this, but with this view you can for instance quickly copy/paste a sample from line 10 in pattern 45 to line 30 in pattern 247.
- Better overview of what’s going on regarding your overall structure and arrangement of the song. Even the blocks in the Pattern Matrix is a bit too mechanical and doesn’t really show what’s going on. I’d love to see how the waveforms look together in the Audio-Tracks view - track by track - after I’ve programmed a drumbeat in the Pattern Editor for example.
- Automations could be merged with the Audio-track view as well, instead of being in the lowest frame and taking up unnecessary space, which will give you a better overview of when/where the automations should start/end. Instead of a pattern approach, you have a sample-approach (yet the pattern-borders are displayed) and you don’t have to edit in blindness as is the case more or less now.
- Quick manipulation of individual hits of a sample at certain place in the project (rather than manipulating the sample at a global level). Perhaps this action automatically creates a new sample in the sample-tree, from e code-view standpoint.
- Play song and Record song from wherever your transport playback currently is.
- (Also, if there’s a post-view it would be serving an even better experience for Audio-Tracks but this might be hard to implement as effects are changing the in real-time more or less.)
- A lot of other things, since the feature itself will open up for endless possibilities.
And as for the last point you made, would you be comfortable using a vertical Sample Editor-only with your own arguments, that other DAWs have horizontal displays? :lol:Does horizontal views regarding other things in Renoise hurt you in some way, as long as they’re implemented as_options_? No, my friend… Since the Sample Editor and the Automation Editor is horizontal already, the horizontal Audio-Tracks makes very much sense and very true to current tracker-environment. What am I missing?
Even though we have Redux and/or other DAWs this is a longterm discussion of what a future version of Renoise could be. Renoise-users are often good at pointing out what’s good with Renoise, though not as good at pointing out why it isn’t as popular as other DAWs. I believe the lack of the overall-view/audio-tracks is one of the main-reasons.A tracker with standard-DAW features would seriously IMO be the BEST DAW out there!
- Nice mockup, but i personally don’t want that.*If it would be possible to disable the “audio track” features i could live with it.
Actually, the mockup is some kind of extension of another suggestion I made which turned out to get quite popular. It was basically just improvement-ideas for the Pattern Matrix (https://forum.renoise.com/t/a-more-practical-pattern-matrix/43134). But I’m not expecting you to delve into that for this matter, but I think my idea in this topic is more understandable once grasping the idea for the Pattern Matrix.
The idea was that the Pattern Matrix could sit on the scopes, a more comprehensive zoom-out feature and/or have a horizontal feature as well since then you can visualize the whole song from start to end.
Now, back to my mockup in this topic; you can see that it’s quite flexible since you simply just switch from Audio-Tracks to the Pattern Matrix back and forth.
The Audio-Tracks are “disabled” as long as you don’t use it and it’s not obstructed for those who wish not to use it. So with that said, I’m not understanding your “anti-devotion” in this matter?
Note: I’m glad there’s discussion in this thread so I have nothing against that.
Better overview, i think it isaquestion of habituationand maybe also a matter of the project size or kind of project. As sayed before, i understand the use of audio tracks for very large/long projects/recordings/files…like big orchestral recordings, film scoring etc.
Respectfully, I’m quite convinced we don’t have to stretch ourselves to movie-making for the need of Audio-Tracks and/or for the need of a better overview with the Pattern Matrix. :lol:
To make this a bit simpler. Let’s only - with this part of the post - talk about the subject of overview and the problems of the Pattern Matrix in this matter:
- You can’t get a full overview of the song from start to finish, if the song is longer than around 3 minutes and in a BPM of 125.
- Even if you did manage to live with the stretch of the windows and hiding frames back and forth, the Pattern Editor is too small at this stage.
- The zoom-ability is not enough either to get a better overview.
- You can’t glue blocks.
- As an alternative, one might think the PM could be detachable. Unfortunately, it isn’t.
Etc…
Note that we’re slightly off-topic since I just pointed out the flaws of the PM, but still not, since the overview-subject is part of the discussion.
Also, let me remind you that not everyone uses everything a DAW has to offer. Meaning, just because _you_handle Renoise in a way that make other feautres superfluous doesn’t mean the points being mentioned by me and others are superfluous in a more objective kind of way.
I think,if someone is highly accustomed to working with a “traditional” DAW, working with a Tracker is not easy at the beginning. This is because you try to copy yourusual workflow from the “traditional” DAW to the Tracker, which will only workpartially.For me, working with a Tracker is more structured and linear. It is hard todescribe, but the workflow is very different (at least for me) in a good way.
I’m not sure if this has to do with anything? You are talking about the Pattern Editor now I presume and the Pattern Matrix nor the Audio-Tracks brainstorming doesn’t mean to replace this kind of editing nor intrude to that.
Speaking of this though, I’ve used tracker-programs since the 90’s and other DAWs later on. However, as time flies users of DAWs are constantly raising the demands of their DAWs. Otherwise we all would still be using Fasttracker II, wouldn’t we?
I’m personally fine with the automation in the lowered frame. The only thing i would like to see are pattern blocks independent automation curves, that would be nice.
Well, a lot of people tend to think otherwise regarding this. I guess this pinned topic on 11 pages is a proof of that. We’ve presented ideas how to incorporate the automations in a more intuitive way, but I must have missed the arguments of having the automations there it is now. Please enlighten me.
I like the “global” behavior more. Just duplicate the sample and tweak it.
Yes, I prefer this as well. But what I said in the previous post was clearly not a substitution, rather a completion.
You can play and record song from every position, don’t?
I might have missed that. Then having it will just be easier to implement such a feature in a theoretically Audio-Tracks feature. However, the point that I was trying to make was that - while having audio tracks alongside visible - will be easier to know where to do certain recordings.
What do you mean with “post-view”?
After you’ve modulated the sample, applied tracking-effects and processed it with DSP’s the waveform may look a bit different.
It may will…but it also will make things messy…*
Please elaborate. And what about the stars you inserted at the end of a couple of your points?
Yes, that would be awesome! Imagine it would be possible to dock the sample editor to the right side and have it view the sample vertically (switchable between - part of the sample which is used in the current pattern block/full sample). Also the automation could be diplayed vertically on the right side… Gimme those features.
Presumed you were serious now, I wouldn’t mind options like these. But keep in mind that most of the things we do, we are doing horizontally. That said, I believe the vertical behaviour of the Pattern Editor is the best one, since that makes most room for inserting commands, tracking-effects etc. However, to keep the rest of the DAW vertical is just a general misconception and I’ve not yet encounter any decent arguments for this.
Edit: As much as I understand the vertical nature should be consumed by other editing-aspects of Renoise, one should know that having the entire DAW vertical just isn’t as good as horizontal - depending on what you want to do. Hence my suggestion of having certain parts of Renoise switchable between vertical and horizontal.
Yes, if Renoise would feature audio tracks, it may become a little bit more popular, but i don’t think this is the main reason.
That’s true and there are not only this thread, but other threads dealing with ideas like these. The threads didn’t pop up to make the DAW more popular though, just more useable.
I like the other mockup with the big Pattern Matrix and agree that this would give a better overview.
It wasn’t my intention to prohibit new features. I respect the fact that everyone has it’s own workflow and need for different/other features than me.Excuse me if some of my comments seem a bit harsh, they are not meant to be. English is not my native language and i may not be always able to describe everything the way i like to do.
I see, got it.
I think your mockup with the audio-tracks looks messy. This, however, is just a personal opinion and by no means meantvicious. The * was just meant as reference to my previousstatement: “If it would be possible to disable the “audio track” features i could live with it.”
I was serious. This one
was just because you might think I’m crazy since i would like to have those features in Renoise.Personally, I could well imagine that the vertical display would be very handy. You’re right, the option to switch certain parts between horizontal and vertical view would be nice and also make the masses happy.
As a conclusion, for me, you’re right, users would benefit from such features. But please make them additions which can be disabled.
No offence taken. I didn’t even think about your comments being harsh at all, and no problems in the english either. 
Yeah, probably the mock-up looks a bit messy and that’s because I mainly used paint and other basic programs. However, the idea itself theoretically may also be a bit messy to some although I’d present it in the best way possible. I’m still thinking how all this could be incorporated in some other way. Perhaps I have some additional/alternative ideas in the future, or design a new DAW. :lol:
So, I’m not sure where the best place for this post is, but it definitely has its place among some of the conversation erupting in this thread. It’s more related to the pattern matrix, which I think is too limited a song structuring solution given the otherwise incredible power of Renoise (seriously, it just let’s you mute the odd track?). Interestingly, what I’m proposing might also setup a solution for audio tracks, so let me explain…
The new concept would be “layers”. So, as it stands, every pattern you’ve ever made in Renoise belongs to layer 1. Each pattern in layer 1 is confined to the same lengths, tracks and effects belonging to that layer. Upon creating a new layer, you are given another blank sheet of patterns, with its own lengths, tracks and effects. Song structuring would remain as pattern ordering in a “composition view”, except 1) working in multiple layers would offer much more flexibility in timing/expression and general pattern efficiency, as well as 2)a stronger visual layout/system could allow for major bonuses in editing, such as dragging out pattern blocks to repeat them and duplicating several blocks at once.
So, where do audio tracks come in… perhaps new layers could be dedicated strictly to audio samples? Samples would have to start on a line, because that is part of the beating heart of renoise design, but ability to zoom in/out of the “composition view” could make such placements easy. Audio blocks would be presented as a vertical waveform. You wouldn’t have access to audio sample layers from the track view, only the default pattern layers.
Opening an old Renoise song would basically just open/order the patterns in a single layer!
Thoughts?
*Edit 1: I made some adjustments in order to clarify some functionality. You can see a selected pattern on the lower left of the composition view. It gives you the ability extend the pattern block on either end for easy duplication (obv more functional for small patterns that need to cover a lot of space). There also appears a box with the pattern’s name and a drop-down allowing you to switch the pattern to any others available in that layer. Layers are very self-contained, which is what allows this whole system to be an extension of the current functionality, maintaining backwards compatibility. So… what if you only want to re-use a portion of a pattern? You can also use the drag dots to cut into the pattern from either end. It doesn’t damage the pattern, only cuts the block’s playable area, by line, from the top or bottom. When this happens, a “plus” icon will appear (visible at the bottom of layer 3) to indicate that the block isn’t full. The plus icon could also be pressed to easily reset either end if there’s space. Adding lines to a pattern in the pattern view could have repercussions on the structure of blocks in the composition view… to minimize/simplify those repercussions, I would expect each affected block to automatically be “cut”, keeping positions intact. Also on display… markers (the reddish lines). Markers can be incredibly useful for making note of important moments and spacing. As you position blocks, they would snap to any near-by markers.
The most significant negative impacts of this new higher level structure would be that the pattern view would no longer be able to tell where the user is in the whole song. I would expect hitting spacebar in the pattern view to only play from the pattern. If you want to hear the song w/ all other layers, you have to be in the composition view. There could also be options for this. Anyway, perhaps a small price to pay for a major functionality boost? *Edit 2: Totally solve problem by keeping the pattern matrix as is (improvements focused on live performance and simplicity) operating only on a single layer, while introducing a whole new composer/arranger with the aforementioned functionality.
@cmakris: Looks pretty complex to me, not sure how this will improve my general workflow in renoise. I currently dont see any benefits of using layers. It reminds me abit to the BLOCKs feature of reason, which was useful in some cases, but it was not important to the most of users as far as i know.
For the audio tracks feature, you just need a simple audio track sequencer like cubase, logic, reason and so on (from left to right). Nothing more. Something, which could be placed under a new tab. Why reinventing the wheel here?
Toimp, thanks for responding, I’ll try to break things down further. First of all, I’m not particularly into the term ‘layers’ for what I’ve presented, so there’s probably a better word available. The layers are actually just tracks, as tracks are generally understood in most workstations. I obviously didn’t use the word track because it’s a taken term within Renoise. Now, to the point… in Renoise, we can build patterns and arrange them in any given sequence. That’s great. Simple and somewhat powerful. You could make almost any kind of music by simply working with long patterns, duplicating sections as necessary, ignoring any sort of practical pattern management, clever re-use, etc. But, that’s a painful way to operate (lots of copy/paste, scrolling through long and hard to read hex patterns, etc). Most music has moments of repetition that the pattern concept allows you to capitalize on. Make the pattern once, re-use as necessary. Except, as it stands, everything that’s happening in the other tracks or “layers of sound” are also forced to repeat. You can’t design a drum track that deviates from the lead track without duplicating the entire pattern and making whatever changes (perhaps as minor as a single note) are required. Here’s another example… you want a baseline at 3/4 and a rhythm at 7/8, playing around with time signatures and developing some cool layered rhythms. You want these patterns to run simultaneously, in parallel, but you don’t necessarily want them to be the same length, because they’re different time signatures. Maybe you want your drum pattern to start one bar in. Sure, you can make it work right now, but by throwing out any concept of practical pattern re-use and efficient song design, making for more head-scratching moments than aught to be necessary given the otherwise incredible power of this program.
So, as for reinventing the wheel, I’m making the argument that the current sequencer (pattern matrix) is not a wheel. Renoise, for arrangement, has no wheel.
Sounds like turning the current patterns into effectively clips that can be attached to a master timeline. Similar to how phrases can be sequenced but I agree that this would have more advantage in the matrix view.
So layers/channels could be like this:
-Pattern layer = sequence and repeat your patterns in the good old fashioned familiar tracker way
-Audio layer = whole track is attached to timeline like most DAWs out there; has audio clips that can be moved around inside it
-MIDI layer = You could have MIDI tracks that are outside of patterns and run the whole timeline like audio tracks do
also still use your phrases in pattern layers or midi layer
would be great to see!
HAHA LOL!!!
please, can we get rid of these damn ‘i want crap like crapbase, awfulten shite in renoise’ guys ???
it’s renoise, a tracker based daw. no damn horizontal faggyt ‘i cant see the waveform, cuz i don’t have hears on my head’ daw!!
renoise has the ‘autoseek’ function. if it’s really too much for you setting ONE note and using volume commands to fade in/out a long wave file,
well then sorry… you’re really using the wrong program!
the only thing the devs could add is a new command for autoseek waves: let the wave start with the song, use a command to split the wave, use another command to continue the wave from where it has been split.
this way you can do whatever you like. AND, they should add a small gui part @ sample/waveform editor, which lets you see how often you have split a wave in blocks, makin you able using another command
to play a specific split block of the wave.
for hardcore tracker people like me … we used 9xx on protracker, Sxx for renoise…
-Sxx - Trigger sample slice number xx or offset xx.
guess what, you can even use SLICES in the waveform editor, which MEANS, you can predefine where to start from your waveform, you can have multiple blocks which’re set to notes for triggering them.
OH MY GOSH!!!
as if it would be so fuckin hard using large wave files. i’ve even done this severall times already. stop being so fuckin cubase/ableton lazy and use this daw how it’s meant to be!
the visualisation of wavefiles in the pattern editor … nah man, plain shite!!! … maybe add an extra track right after Master,S01,S02 tracks… for wavefile visualisation.
but tbh, i never needed shit like this!
what would be really cool is, grouping patterns together to blocks in the pattern matrix. not the ‘alias’ feature, real blocks. 2 pattern blocks to one bigger block. that shouldn’t be a problem?
and ye, sorry for the harshn hostile mouth … but i’m fedup with people trying to transform this into some crap!
you want all that? go buy studioOne pro v3, cubase 8, reaper 5, reason 8 … it’s all there!
HAHA LOL!!!
please, can we get rid of these damn ‘i want crap like crapbase, awfulten shite in renoise’ guys ???
it’s renoise, a tracker based daw. no damn horizontal faggyt ‘i cant see the waveform, cuz i don’t have hears on my head’ daw!!
renoise has the ‘autoseek’ function. if it’s really too much for you setting ONE note and using volume commands to fade in/out a long wave file,
well then sorry… you’re really using the wrong program!
Well it would be nice to be able to arrange horizontally, because gives you a clear overview of all elements of your track and where they are triggered at a glance. The pattern matrix is an improvement to regular patterns, but I feel it’s not quite there yet since you’d still need to scroll down to see the next part.
A simple arrange view would allow me to keep some more complex projects in Renoise instead of exporting all tracks and arranging in Reaper or Live, so I’m all for it.
Well it would be nice to be able to arrange horizontally, because gives you a clear overview of all elements of your track and where they are triggered at a glance. The pattern matrix is an improvement to regular patterns, but I feel it’s not quite there yet since you’d still need to scroll down to see the next part.
A simple arrange view would allow me to keep some more complex projects in Renoise instead of exporting all tracks and arranging in Reaper or Live, so I’m all for it.
yea , they could add an extra detachable window, for horizontal arrangement. pattern matrix for the blocks, horizontal view for moving/copying around more faster.
it is a pain in the ass doing so in the pattern matrix. true that!
best idea would be if somebody would code a pianoroll and arranger via luascripting … as a tool…
HAHA LOL!!!
please, can we get rid of these damn ‘i want crap like crapbase, awfulten shite in renoise’ guys ???
it’s renoise, a tracker based daw. no damn horizontal faggyt ‘i cant see the waveform, cuz i don’t have hears on my head’ daw!!
renoise has the ‘autoseek’ function. if it’s really too much for you setting ONE note and using volume commands to fade in/out a long wave file,
well then sorry… you’re really using the wrong program!
the only thing the devs could add is a new command for autoseek waves: let the wave start with the song, use a command to split the wave, use another command to continue the wave from where it has been split.
this way you can do whatever you like. AND, they should add a small gui part @ sample/waveform editor, which lets you see how often you have split a wave in blocks, makin you able using another command
to play a specific split block of the wave.
for hardcore tracker people like me … we used 9xx on protracker, Sxx for renoise…
-Sxx - Trigger sample slice number xx or offset xx.
guess what, you can even use SLICES in the waveform editor, which MEANS, you can predefine where to start from your waveform, you can have multiple blocks which’re set to notes for triggering them.
OH MY GOSH!!!
as if it would be so fuckin hard using large wave files. i’ve even done this severall times already. stop being so fuckin cubase/ableton lazy and use this daw how it’s meant to be!
the visualisation of wavefiles in the pattern editor … nah man, plain shite!!! … maybe add an extra track right after Master,S01,S02 tracks… for wavefile visualisation.
but tbh, i never needed shit like this!
what would be really cool is, grouping patterns together to blocks in the pattern matrix. not the ‘alias’ feature, real blocks. 2 pattern blocks to one bigger block. that shouldn’t be a problem?
and ye, sorry for the harshn hostile mouth … but i’m fedup with people trying to transform this into some crap!
you want all that? go buy studioOne pro v3, cubase 8, reaper 5, reason 8 … it’s all there!
harsh, but agreed^^
thats why i started to work with bitwig, IF i need somehting like this. just render all stuff from renoise, tracks, snippets whatever, and play around with it, bend it, distort the hell outt of it with effects, shift it, record audio to it while watching wavefiles. even perform it live, if it pleases. but for me too thats not what makes renoise unique and already versatile to produce stuff precisely from pure sketches to whole movie soundtracks.
im sure the devs have to sacrifice a lot for implementing stuff like this and i dont think u will then get renoise for the actual license policy. if renoise loses its uniqueness people will rather buy the common DAWs even more.
but who knows what the devs are goin for in the future :D.
funny sidestory: i saw similar discussions goin on for blender (which many tried to turn into clones of maya, 3dsmax or whatnot).
I say bring on more ideas, screenshots and imagination!
Most of the time things wont be implemented overnight and change renoises uniqueness. I know the devs consider things a lot before implementing and care about making renoise the best it can, trying not to alienate long time users too. If a few more ideas helps push things forward I`m all for it. Even if it triggers some lateral offshoot idea.
To be honest Ive never really been bothered about the tracker/ current interface as a sort of identity, it just happens to be pretty efficient and responsive way at getting musical ideas into a computer quickly. Its got its strengths and weaknesses as do other parts of the program (and all programs). Id aswell have been happy if Cubase/Live or any of them implemented a decent tracker, along side their piano-rolls/ audiotracks, of course that hasn`t happened.
There is also some stuff that I never would have campaigned for: Lu what eh? . Couldn`t be without it now!
Anyhow I`m not against critique, I just wanna see more screenshots/ ideas and feathers ruffled! 
My “expectation” is nothing more than a simple vertical waveform. Not represented as an instrument or anything, but just as a new track type (streaming).
There are only two more things needed to make it sensible enough for a first iteration, as i see it. Firstly, you should be able to split the waveform into segments that can be dragged/snapped/scoped up and down. Secondly, when doubleclicking a segment it should be brought up in a sample editor.
This is basically the foundation that brings it far enough, and later on features like timestretch and more extensive inline editing can be added.
EDIT: Well. Of course also changing the normal pitch/playback rate of any segment. EDIT 2: And of course ability to arm with an input. And render other tracks/selections to audio track.
My “expectation” is nothing more than a simple vertical waveform.
Yup. still having wet dreams about these verticals. And whenever I have other musicians/guests/collab partners over, they don’t understand sh*t of whats going on with their vocal / bassline / guitar track, since there is no visualisation of their recording on my screen.
I’d be happy with just a very basic implementation of this as well, and all the other possibilites with it could be developed over time IMHO.
If Renoise had waveform/audio track editing, it would eliminate an entire extra program from my workflow and would be incredible. thx.