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Instrument modulation concept


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#26 Bit_Arts

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Posted 28 December 2013 - 21:15

Really? Try pitch modulation with random LFO in 2.8.


You just proved, you have totally no idea what this thread is about. "Experts" like you...
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#27 BYTE-Smasher

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Posted 28 December 2013 - 21:18

You just proved, you have totally no idea what this thread is about. "Experts" like you...

Actually, all it proves is that I have a hard time following your strange usage of English grammar.
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#28 Bit_Arts

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Posted 28 December 2013 - 21:21

Actually, all it proves is that I have a hard time following your strange usage of English grammar.


Well, if your german is better, let it out. Or even better, go and search for a place to troll somewhere else. This a a thread about a serious topic. It's not thought for the entertainment of bored wannabes.
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#29 BYTE-Smasher

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Posted 28 December 2013 - 21:25

Well, if your german is better, let it out. Or even better, go and search for a place to troll somewhere else. This a a thread about a serious topic. It's not thought for the entertainment of bored wannabes.

Oh, I'm sorry... I thought you were setting a precedent for derailing threads by commenting on mine. My bad.
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#30 Acidfire

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Posted 28 December 2013 - 21:26

What would be the point of implementing this feature exactly as everyone else does it? If you want that just load a plugin that does it. Implementing it in Renoise wouldn't allow us to do anything new and thus adds no value.

This implementation is fun and more unique. Also it makes much more sense for the crazy sample mangler that Renoise is.

That being said, adding something like Djeroek painted would be great :D/>
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#31 Bit_Arts

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Posted 28 December 2013 - 21:33

What would be the point of implementing this feature exactly as everyone else does it? If you want that just load a plugin that does it. Implementing it in Renoise wouldn't allow us to do anything new and thus adds no value.

This implementation is fun and more unique. Also it makes much more sense for the crazy sample mangler that Renoise is.

That being said, adding something like Djeroek painted would be great :D/>/>


There is nothing you can do atm, that you wouldn't be able to do with a way more comfortable concept. It seems the problem is, there are just a whole lot of people, who don't get, what this discussion is about. Anyone familiar with synths in depth wouldn't have any problem, to identify the current issues.
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#32 BYTE-Smasher

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Posted 28 December 2013 - 21:34

Since when is Renoise a synth?
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#33 Bit_Arts

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Posted 28 December 2013 - 21:36

Since when is Renoise a synth?


Well, everything you're doing here with filters, pitch, volume and all that stuff is called "substractive synthesis". Good morning!

Anyway, you're going on ignore now, f*****g troll.

Edited by Bit_Arts, 28 December 2013 - 21:37.

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#34 BYTE-Smasher

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Posted 28 December 2013 - 21:38

Do you try eating soup with a butter knife too? Renoise is a sample sequencer... it's not meant to serve as a synthesizer. Hell, it doesn't even have modular routing. Why on earth would you attempt to shoehorn a sample sequencer into being a full fledged synthesizer and complain at the devs when it acts too much like a sample sequencer and not as much like a synth?
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#35 shr

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Posted 28 December 2013 - 22:32

somehow it's the same as it has been with the effects, a channel strip, kinda
i always like it because i didn't have to think about it much. then, when in need for free routing, the send devices / any "side" concepts failed to serve my needs, mainly because i just didn't get it, not that it wouldn't work somewhen.
both ways have their advantages
i don't think r3 went the wrong way, but i agree that when someone takes time to do things, the free routing concent wins by far, since, in the end it allows everything

maybe (if it's just this and not other problems) let everything be the "channel strip-way", and later, r4 could offer a complete different view that allows free-routing and has cables initially plugged for the default routing, like reason: front = for dummies, back = for pros?..

i'm oversimplifying, sorry

but there are already many overlapping features: e.g. you can ramp in something destructivly in the sample editor, you can use adsr, envelope, fx commands. if you're serious about the modular system, it cannot become modular, because actually renoise would have to remove features, in order to make it maintainable and keep documentation and user experience clear?... lately i was using zebra often and urs heckmann simply started a new product that was more modular (ace and diva, dunno). that's another possible way for the renoise team too, i guess.

i have my velocity -> cutoff now for slightly changing big acoustic multisamples, i guess it wasn't possible in r2 and is now in r3. r3 has improved :)

#36 gentleclockdivider

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Posted 28 December 2013 - 23:16

beer/chips ...get the moody right ....


..yes .

THERE IS NO RELIGION SUPERIOR TO THE TRUTH


THERE IS NO TRUTH SUPERIOR TO THE ONE I CHOOSE

C'EST MIEUX D'ETRE BELLE ET REBELLE


QUE MOCHE ET REMOCHE



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#37 gentleclockdivider

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Posted 28 December 2013 - 23:23

Do you try eating soup with a butter knife too? Renoise is a sample sequencer... it's not meant to serve as a synthesizer. Hell, it doesn't even have modular routing. Why on earth would you attempt to shoehorn a sample sequencer into being a full fledged synthesizer and complain at the devs when it acts too much like a sample sequencer and not as much like a synth?



byte ...you know what bit arts point is .
You know he has the skills to make some seriously crazy device chains ...he is just pointing out that it could be better implemented in R 3.0 as it is now .

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THERE IS NO RELIGION SUPERIOR TO THE TRUTH


THERE IS NO TRUTH SUPERIOR TO THE ONE I CHOOSE

C'EST MIEUX D'ETRE BELLE ET REBELLE


QUE MOCHE ET REMOCHE



RUBIO RABIA

 


#38 fladd

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Posted 28 December 2013 - 23:44

Yeah, great idea guys, let's piss off the few people who actually know what they are talking about so that they leave the community...
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#39 vV

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Posted 29 December 2013 - 02:41

Yeah, great idea guys, let's piss off the few people who actually know what they are talking about so that they leave the community...


We should actually rather focus on getting Renoise good on the rails here, R3 is just on Beta 2 and perhaps there may be several versions more. If bitching on each other in the wide open is a way of sorting out things for some people:now is not the right moment, please wait until R3 is final.
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#40 Bit_Arts

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Posted 29 December 2013 - 08:11

8 envelopes, 16 assigned paramters and 2 envelope modulators

Well, this is only a part of the whole setup, but I guess, it makes things clear. Remember, we were talking here about a monophonic sound. If this was a synth for playing chords, with 8 notes we'd easily have reached 64 envelopes, 128 params and 16 envelope modulators used in the background.


Btw... refering to this and the inefficient sample routing I mentioned here, this is what's currently used in the background, when faking a single unison oscillator with just 8 notes:

- 512 envelopes, 1024 assigned parameters, 128 envelope modulators.

when a proper concept would only need

- 8 envelopes, 32 assigned parameters and 16 envelope modulators.


If I was going to fake a common 4 oscillator unison setup, it would be Renoise using for 8 voices

- 2048 envelopes, 4096 assigned parameters, 512 envelope modulators

And there are still no parameters like keytracking, velocity, LFOs and so on counted in yet. So it's quite well possible, the whole Renoise usage becomes even a multiple of the above mentionend in the end. Using a filter, there would be running 64 Filters in Renoise, on a faked Sylenth1 setup it would be 128. When actually 8 / 16 would do the same in a properly designed concept.

What a tour de force. Happy renoising! You could also use your processor from 10 years ago with some other DAW of today. The result would most probably be the same or better. Just making way more sense for editing sounds. "Some redundancy"... what a bad joke.

Edited by Bit_Arts, 29 December 2013 - 09:00.

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#41 fladd

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Posted 29 December 2013 - 11:29

now is not the right moment, please wait until R3 is final.

If I understood Bit_Arts correctly, then his main point is the exact opposite, namely that now IS the moment, because otherwise when R3 goes final, the concept will certainly not be changed again. Or did I misunderstand this?

Btw... refering to this and the inefficient sample routing I mentioned here, this is what's currently used in the background, when faking a single unison oscillator with just 8 notes:

- 512 envelopes, 1024 assigned parameters, 128 envelope modulators.

when a proper concept would only need

- 8 envelopes, 32 assigned parameters and 16 envelope modulators.


If I was going to fake a common 4 oscillator unison setup, it would be Renoise using for 8 voices

- 2048 envelopes, 4096 assigned parameters, 512 envelope modulators

And there are still no parameters like keytracking, velocity, LFOs and so on counted in yet. So it's quite well possible, the whole Renoise usage becomes even a multiple of the above mentionend in the end. Using a filter, there would be running 64 Filters in Renoise, on a faked Sylenth1 setup it would be 128. When actually 8 / 16 would do the same in a properly designed concept.

What a tour de force. Happy renoising! You could also use your processor from 10 years ago with some other DAW of today. The result would most probably be the same or better. Just making way more sense for editing sounds. "Some redundancy"... what a bad joke.


So how does this vast amount of envelopes, parameters and modulators actually affect the CPU usage, compared to other synths then? Since Taktik seemed to mention that it should not affect CPU usage that much.

#42 vV

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Posted 29 December 2013 - 14:21

If I understood Bit_Arts correctly, then his main point is the exact opposite, namely that now IS the moment


I was only speaking of the bitching part.
There is a difference between debating and ranting.
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#43 Rxn

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Posted 29 December 2013 - 14:54

There is a lot of tears and pulled hair floating around this thread, sensation of forthcoming doom and that Renoise is being derailed by the developers.

Here, maybe it will not be that difficult to blend it into the current GUI (excuse my usage of fonts):


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#44 spacecult

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Posted 29 December 2013 - 15:15

If I understood Bit_Arts correctly, then his main point is the exact opposite, namely that now IS the moment, because otherwise when R3 goes final, the concept will certainly not be changed again. Or did I misunderstand this?


He does have a point but I'm not so sure that the solution would have to break the current setup. If some sort of master modulators were added, couldn't you just have corresponding receiver devices listed with all the others in each current modulation type? Perhaps they would be only small blank boxes when added to the target chain or maybe with only an 'amount' slider, or some such, and you did all other adjustment to them on their own master mod section.

In this way you could still use only the master modulations if you wanted to by selecting only 'receiver' devices in each target type. But you could also mix and match them with each target type's own modulators and place them wherever in that chain as desired for different scaling and variations and such stuff.

And it wouldn't have to break anything that currently exists.

Or, perhaps you could have some macro-like mod matrix and still have receiver devices to accept input from the mod matrix outputs instead. This wouldn't have to be implemented in a way that would break instruments built with the current system, either.

Point is, some kind of receiver devices working with the present dedicated modulators, not instead of or against them.

There is a lot of tears and pulled hair floating around this thread, sensation of forthcoming doom and that Renoise is being derailed by the developers.

Here, maybe it will not be that difficult to blend it into the current GUI


That's an interesting solution, also.

#45 It-Alien

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Posted 29 December 2013 - 15:30

since the problem outlined by Bit_Arts, which definitely has a point if the aim is to create synths in Renoise, is that the modulation assignment works the opposite as it should be in order to be flexible, then the solution could be reversing the assignment matrix:

the current one allows to assign one modulation to any sample in the modulation tab; couldn't we allow to assign one sample to any modulation in the sample tab? of course it may not be as easy as it seems in words, but I think it is more or less what he is asking about?
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#46 Bit_Arts

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Posted 29 December 2013 - 15:53

since the problem outlined by Bit_Arts, which definitely has a point if the aim is to create synths in Renoise, is that the modulation assignment works the opposite as it should be in order to be flexible, then the solution could be reversing the assignment matrix:

the current one allows to assign one modulation to any sample in the modulation tab; couldn't we allow to assign one sample to any modulation in the sample tab? of course it may not be as easy as it seems in words, but I think it is more or less what he is asking about?


I'd keep the assignment of a modulation set to one and more samples. That's actually something I liked in this concept. Imo "just" the relation between modulators/modulation sources and their targets needs a rework. Modulators and modulations sources would need to be available in an open pool, with a (multiple) assignment GUI for modulators, operands, value ranges and the actual sources added to the pool. That pool in the end would be the modulation set.

If there's really will and interest to fix this NOW, and I can help somehow, let me know.

Edited by Bit_Arts, 29 December 2013 - 15:57.

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#47 Guest_crytek_*

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Posted 29 December 2013 - 16:42

Well I'm for one am scratching my head trying to tweak these envelopes to modulate the sound the way I wanted. I randomly drew in some waveforms and had a go a synthesis within renoise. I didn't get the result I wanted, but I'm willing to chuck that up to skill in synthesis, or lack thereof than the application itself. Still I wish modulation would be easier, Hell, if not, then why not have a Copy past buttons so that we can duplicate the same modulation curves inside multiple parameters?

#48 Akiz

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Posted 29 December 2013 - 17:43

Even if i agree with bit_arts but because i make complex soundesign in vsti and then render it i dont need a renoise become a better synth so much. I take these instrument posibilities as a hocus pocus and I agree with Acidfire here also.Both ways are interesting for something else. One is more mature the second one more accessible and less predictable.
But! if Renoise wont be a synth but more inspirational sampler, make automatization of vsti more polished. There is a lot of great (and even free) software synths that have great sound and posibilities.

Edited by Akiz, 29 December 2013 - 17:47.


#49 pvcf

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Posted 29 December 2013 - 18:06

@byte-smasher

Do you try eating soup with a butter knife too? Renoise is a sample sequencer... it's not meant to serve as a synthesizer. Hell, it doesn't even have modular routing. Why on earth would you attempt to shoehorn a sample sequencer into being a full fledged synthesizer and complain at the devs when it acts too much like a sample sequencer and not as much like a synth?


+1
fully agree. unfortunately implementing more and more such sound design things makes the sequenceing interface more and more uncomfortable :(

#50 Bit_Arts

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Posted 29 December 2013 - 18:25

+1
fully agree. unfortunately implementing more and more such sound design things makes the sequenceing interface more and more uncomfortable :(/>


Would you please be so kind to post a single example of this? I'd really like to see, where a single part related to sound design affects the sequencing interface. Thank you!

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