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Automatization of VSTI and also Macro Devices...


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#1 Akiz

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Posted 11 January 2014 - 21:53

I hoped that with R3 there will be more comfortable way of automatization.
Because there is tool that will find name of parameter by pointing on it in the gui (http://www.renoise.c...getpluginparams) i though that it will be easy to create behaviour so i can point at some gui parameter, right click on it, choose something like "parameter automatization" and instr. automatization device would be created on selected track, assigned to that parameter and empty modulation envelope of it would be displayed (you wont have to use it, you still can use text commands). Same behaviour would be for macro and its device. Dont need anything more complicated as it would be similar behaviour to every other daw and it is much more comfortable than the current way, mainly for new users.
By the same way it should be also possible to assign midi control that will be automaticaly attached to automatically created instr. aut. device for easy realtime modulation (into modulation envelope or right into the track).

Is there any problem why it cant be implemented? I´ve suggested it in other forums but never heard any word from any of developers (maybe i dont focus enought ^_^). It is the biggest flaw i have with renoise for a years, because i would love to modulate my vstis and do not break my workflow.

:-)

Edited by Akiz, 11 January 2014 - 23:25.

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#2 engine

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Posted 12 January 2014 - 01:16

count me in.

#3 Akiz

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Posted 12 January 2014 - 09:42

Maybe Dblue will say something... ;)

#4 Roppenzo

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Posted 12 January 2014 - 12:55

Jepz

+1

vst synths are way to complicated to look for any thing like op17mod2lfo1lbr

Unlabelled parameters are a problem as well as plugins that have billions of parameters.

It would be cool if instead of looking for parameter through menu (some vsti have awfull lot of different parameters) you could set a slot in instrument automation device to "record" (like midi learn)
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#5 vV

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Posted 12 January 2014 - 14:24

The dev-team is allowed to steal code from my tool (gives me one tool less to maintain), although they most likely know a lot better how to do it themselves.
The only tricky part with the learn option is to circumvent LFO triggered events in the plugin if you are not after that particular parameter. I did tackled that in the tool but i'm not sure how this ignore option could be embedded and should look like in a native dialog.
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#6 Akiz

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Posted 12 January 2014 - 16:30

But the only problem in your tool is that the pointed parameter is overwritten by some lfo triggered parameter in a moment. But when i click on it, it shows (for a second or a less) the right parameter, so i dont see problem here. Automatized will be what i´ve just select. Or maybe i dont understand you well (??)...

Edited by Akiz, 12 January 2014 - 19:54.


#7 vV

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Posted 12 January 2014 - 22:42

But the only problem in your tool is that the pointed parameter is overwritten by some lfo triggered parameter in a moment. But when i click on it, it shows (for a second or a less) the right parameter, so i dont see problem here.

Like i wrote, i have an option in my tool that allows ignoring lfo triggered parameters:if you toggle it, the parameter would be ignored but will still listen to all the other parameters :)
A native learning method does require this as well because Renoise won't be able to distinguish internal movement from parameters that you move by hand in the GUI:they are all parameter values being send.
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#8 Akiz

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Posted 13 January 2014 - 00:16

Maybe it is language barrier but i am still not sure what the problem is.
Let´s say there is lfo modulated filter cutoff of some vsti. Your tool or native renoise behaviour will think that i am pointing at it because it is moving(is it what you are talking about?).

It should behave like this: because i didnt select "automatize parameter" on it it wont do nothing and will be ignored. It will create automatization only for selected parameter (that selected with right click in the moment of that right click).
Every other big daw out here does it by this way, so is it some renoise internal problem?

And if you are talking about backward problem, that if i will modulate filter cutoff (that is modulated by internal lfo) Renoise will record this movement of it into modulation envelope. It could be fun. No big problem for me, seems logical. But didnt try behaviour of other daws in this situation...

But if you meant something else, sorry for my imbecility.

Edited by Akiz, 13 January 2014 - 15:27.


#9 vV

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Posted 13 January 2014 - 20:43

Let´s say there is lfo modulated filter cutoff of some vsti. Your tool or native renoise behaviour will think that i am pointing at it because it is moving(is it what you are talking about?).

It should behave like this: because i didnt select "automatize parameter" on it it wont do nothing and will be ignored. It will create automatization only for selected parameter (that selected with right click in the moment of that right click).
Every other big daw out here does it by this way, so is it some renoise internal problem?


Are you sure that every big daw gets the exact proper parameter name? A vsti plugin window has its own GUI and responses solitary to mouse messages. If they broadcast a different message for that parameter when it is clicked with right mouse button, than that is a specific communication protocol that the devs may not be aware of (or is it VSTI 3.0 specification? Renoise does not support VSTI 3.0 protocol). But if not:there is no other way for a host to be sure if a parameter is clicked with left or right mousebutton inside the window, the host simply does not have any power within the plugin environment regarding GUI control except for its outer frames except for forwarding the messages (The keyboard checkbox also only provides exclusive keyboard control forwarding).
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#10 cytone

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Posted 13 January 2014 - 21:36

Are you sure that every big daw gets the exact proper parameter name? A vsti plugin window has its own GUI and responses solitary to mouse messages. If they broadcast a different message for that parameter when it is clicked with right mouse button, than that is a specific communication protocol that the devs may not be aware of (or is it VSTI 3.0 specification? Renoise does not support VSTI 3.0 protocol). But if not:there is no other way for a host to be sure if a parameter is clicked with left or right mousebutton inside the window, the host simply does not have any power within the plugin environment regarding GUI control except for its outer frames except for forwarding the messages (The keyboard checkbox also only provides exclusive keyboard control forwarding).


This doesn't work with some older plugins but I believe it is up to the plugin developer to code it so when you mouse click on a control it sends out the relevant callback message.

#11 vV

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Posted 13 January 2014 - 21:54

This doesn't work with some older plugins but I believe it is up to the plugin developer to code it so when you mouse click on a control it sends out the relevant callback message.


Brings also the risk that if the plugin developer does forget to code a callback for a specific dial, it won't work for that dial either.
The problem with scripting is that you don't get this sort of data in Lua, so i can only guess what is communicated between Renoise and plugins, this is however based on my own knowledge controlling DLL plugins from within my own programs so in regard to GUI control i do know that libraries definitely need to forward keyboard and mouse interaction through function return calls because the main execution program will not get this data.
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#12 Akiz

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Posted 15 January 2014 - 12:43

I get you now, but on the other hand if it will not always work then we wont blame Renoise team but the plugin developer :-).
I am not sure if every DAW get parameters right but when i was working with FL Studio or Ableton 8, i didnt have any problem with vsti automatization. I am trying reaper in write mode and everything what i modulate is written right. And even if there would be recorded some other parameter (it isnt), i can delete automatization of it. No bigdeal. And I dont use vsti 3, just vsti 2.4.
I love Renoise but its automatization concept (editing, curves, vsti etc) should be upgraded imho.

Edited by Akiz, 15 January 2014 - 12:44.


#13 kolacell

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Posted 16 January 2014 - 10:28

i suggest to hire some good coders to make renoise what it should be, otherwise it will be dead very soon. that wouldnt be funny at all... i really dont like the other daws that much. renoise must get more professional :-/

Edited by kolacell, 16 January 2014 - 10:32.


#14 Akiz

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Posted 18 March 2014 - 13:48

"But if you move a VST parameter and have the automation lane visible in Bitwig, it shows that last toggled/changed parameter. So it's not a big deal to find the correct ones.
And in the list, you see the parameters moving when you change them in the VST GUI."

Next DAW that can do it from its beggining...

Edited by Akiz, 18 March 2014 - 13:48.


#15 nautilus

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Posted 19 March 2014 - 21:01

In Logic you can show the plugin as the GUI or as a list of parameters
like renoise does with the effects. Move a parameter and the corresponding
parameter will be shown or recorded in logics automation view. Actually renoise
does this with effects too. What is so different between VST and VSTi?

I guess it has a closed core, inputs, (midi/audio) outputs (midi/audio) and
sends host information like latency, CPU consumption and such things...

Actually I do understand the comfortability of recording parameter changes
on the GUI. For the renoise typical "touch" there would be much space for
parameter sliders (which are right-clickable) at the right side of the plugin-tab.


I am pleased as automation is handled now (it works!!) and am exited looking
forward for every update. :w00t:

Edited by nautilus, 19 March 2014 - 21:09.


#16 Akiz

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Posted 19 March 2014 - 21:17

Btw. automation device has one big advance although.
If you have some 8 knobs midi deivce, you just create instr. aut device, select parameters, save it and then you have nice preset for your controler of every vsti. It just take little more effort than is common.
I would just prefer some faster way also for more comfortable and fast experimenting...

Edited by Akiz, 19 March 2014 - 21:18.


#17 nautilus

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Posted 20 March 2014 - 00:10

If you have some 8 knobs midi deivce, you just create instr. aut device, select parameters, save it and then you have nice preset for your controler of every vsti.


Can you explain how I can set this up? Do I need the Duplex Tool?
I figured out how I can control parameters globally. (via MidiLearn)
But this cannot be saved in the preset.
:huh:

#18 vV

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Posted 20 March 2014 - 10:32

But this cannot be saved in the preset.
Posted Image

It cannot be saved in a preset because the parameters are plugin bound.
If you would apply those presets to a different plugin, the plugin could crash or worse:Renoise could crash.

Save your bindings as a template song (File -> Save as template song) along with the instruments which gets loaded everytime by default or simply save the song as a custom template (give it a template title so that you can find it back easier)
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#19 nautilus

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Posted 20 March 2014 - 11:42

Okay thanks. Your tip is good. :)

I managed to map the transport field to my controller and save it as a template.
For automation I think it would be easier for me to "learn" some of the automation
device-sliders, write it to automation and cleaning the mapped knobs afterwards.
I start a (progressive psytrance) song with BD, Sub and Bass and there should
not be more than that until its mixed as a 'base'.

Probably your tip is gold when I have more tracks and know what I 'always' want
to add. :)

Have a good day

#20 Akiz

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Posted 20 March 2014 - 16:39

I am very sory for that big confusion. It really can not be saved.

#21 esp81

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Posted 20 March 2014 - 17:34

i suggest to hire some good coders to make renoise what it should be, otherwise it will be dead very soon. that wouldnt be funny at all... i really dont like the other daws that much. renoise must get more professional :-/


You are such an obnoxious little shit.
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#22 thalamus

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Posted 22 March 2014 - 22:47

i suggest to hire some good coders to make renoise what it should be, otherwise it will be dead very soon. that wouldnt be funny at all... i really dont like the other daws that much. renoise must get more professional :-/



We have to get things into perspective. Renoise is a tracker that is evolving, and with it the art of tracking. Renoise is not and has never, as far as I know, been a substitute for the most powerful and feature-rich DAWs available. It's a tracker, and tracking is probably always going to be relatively niche. Of course this does not stop Renoise from having big aspirations and I totally love the idea that it could replace all the audio software I use.

I don't think Renoise will be "dead very soon" purely because it doesn't appear to be living up to your expectations, it's still (all things considered) the most mature tracker available. Folks like tracking, the very existence of Renoise attests to that. Must Renoise get more "professional" in order to survive? Of course not. It's a tracker, it is not required to conform in order to be attractive to those who think in these alternative ways. It does not have to do all that Nuendo or Live do in order to be attractive to those who dig the tracking thing. See ReWire.

So maybe lets just relax with the tension a bit and let Renoise pan out with a bit of love from us here and there, without resorting to comments that conjure mushroom clouds and armageddon in general.

And as a footnote, the term 'professional' is the most enormous cop-out.

Edited by thalamus, 24 March 2014 - 10:00.

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