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DEVs on what you are currently working on? Redux update?


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#76 Airmann

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Posted 21 December 2016 - 23:06

They still take money for their product, because it's well worth the money and if you don't want to buy it you can use the demo or buy some other DAW. I can't see why this should be a problem?

 

E.g. because features like wav tracks were "kind of" announced. Also with the the introduction of 2.8 or 3.0  there was talk that this version(s) would lay the ground for later things like wav tracks. I'm granted updates till 4.0 and I wait for features like this for a long time now. I feel tricked and I'm really disappointed about it.

 

but i'm glad they don't just make a lot of half arsed updates that doesn't work.

 

Reaper provides monthly updates and always worked for me rock solid. It's possible to deliver frequent updates without breaking things.

 

Just because the Renoise team does not involve themselves in the vast amounts of post an threads like this, doesn't mean they don't care. Why would they bother to answer the same questions over and over again?

 

Totally untrue ! Problem is, that for certain questions they don't give ANY answers. They could answer those questions with simple news blogs, faqs whatever. But they don't. And thus we have threads like this.

 

You can't buy a cheap featureless car and expect that it's fully upgraded with rear view cameras, parking sensors, air condition and GPS in the next free upgrade.  

 

Also wrong. I need a car without fancy stuff. I need bread and butter features,without rear view cameras and that stuff. But they added it ! All I wanted was more bread and butter, but they gave me the vanguard menu ;-).

 

What's the point in expressing all this negativity towards something that has given us so much and that they have never been greedy about it? All this negativity does not work as fuel towards the project, i would rather belive it has an opposite effect. For how long can someone cope with all this negativity? Why would they bother doing an effort when all you immature kids just complaint anyway?

 

 

The silence and absence of the Renoise team causes negativity. I'm on board here since 2008 and also have contributed some things. In contrast to the Renoise team I never took or earned a cent for my work. But they just ignore many volunteer people like me. And how comes you know my age ? I probably could be your father, mate !

 

Please stop complaining and take it for what it is and not for what you want it to be. It's meaningless use of energy.

 

There's a reason why people complain. It doesn't help to play things down again and again. The communication method of the Renoise team (radio silence) is not satisfying. And as long as they stubbornly follow this route, there will be problems and complains and not "happy clappy". Why is that so difficult to understand ? I


Edited by Airmann, 21 December 2016 - 23:59.

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#77 Skyscape

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Posted 21 December 2016 - 23:15

The slow pace of Renoise development doesn't bother me. I've been with Renoise since the very beginning and I've never felt limited. Sure, there are things I'd love to see implemented, but it's not the end of the world if they're not. Even if the devs aren't directly working on Renoise at the moment the fact that Taktik said that whatever they're working on may directly benefit Renoise in the future is very promising as far as I can see. It's very important as a developer to take breaks and also go off on tangents in order to reinvigorate and innovate. I completely understand needing to work on other things and support that. With the myriad plugins and rewiring options available I don't even know why people bother complaining - there's nearly always a way to get something done no matter how esoteric it is.



#78 Airmann

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Posted 21 December 2016 - 23:19

I'm intrested to see how they implement vertical waveforms in the pattern editor...(seems like it might go that way), maybe video clips?

 

This has discussed in the forum before maybe 1000 times. But I fear it will never be implemented.


Edited by Airmann, 21 December 2016 - 23:52.

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#79 Fsus4

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Posted 22 December 2016 - 00:11

E.g. because features like wav tracks were "kind of" announced. Also with the the introduction of 2.8 or 3.0  there was talk that this version(s) would lay the ground for later things like wav tracks. I'm granted updates till 4.0 and I wait for features like this for a long time now. I feel tricked.

 

[..]

 

There's a reason why people complain. It doesn't help to play things down again and again. The communication method of the Renoise team (radio silence) is not satisfying. And as long as they stubbornly follow this route, there will be problems and complains. Why is that so difficult to understand ?

 

And right there you actually manifest the deeper cause of the radio silence. Because if reasonable guys like yourself feel "tricked", what do you suppose will happen when the unreasonable guys join the negative chorus with their fragile egos and ruined dreams?

 

No wonder taktik would close the door, hide the key and shut down any communication about development, ideas, policies, visions.... 

 

What your specific  "communicate more!" path also seems to include is this moral imperative: Developers shouldn't be talking so much, because unless they deliver exactly what the majority of users expect according to their interpretations of words (filtered through their own subjective distortions, daydreams, projections, etc) that will only lead to disappointments among mentalities who feel they are entitled to XYZ (or even entitled to never feel disappointed)!

 

What this leads to is only stagnation, because when developers are not granted the right to primarily be humans who make mistakes and adapt to reality by revising their paths forward and experiment in freedom, they will not be open to expose themselves to those who judge them from some sort of mental template that says it's OK to demand, dictate, criticize and only accept "perfection".

 

You see, that's exactly why "communicate more" and "more transparancy" will not work. The devs have probably learnt the lesson that it's safest to be silent and not talk about anything that actually isn't ready to talk about yet. That big can of worms simply takes to much time to handle.

 

Why is that so difficult to understand?


Edited by Fsus4, 22 December 2016 - 00:31.


#80 Airmann

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Posted 22 December 2016 - 00:30

And right there you actually manifest the deeper cause of taktik's self-chosen radio silence. Because if reasonable guys like yourself feel "tricked" because practical reality knocked on the door, what do you suppose will happen when the unreasonable guys join the negative wave with their fragile egos and ruined dreams?

 

No wonder taktik would close the door, hide the key and shut down any communication about development, ideas, policies, visions.... 

 

What your "communicate more!" path also seems to include is this moral imperative: Developers shouldn't be talking so much, because unless they deliver exactly what X number of users expect according to their interpretations of words (combined with their own distortions, daydreams, projections, etc) that will lead to disappointments among people who feel they are entitled to XYZ.

 

What this leads to is only stagnation, because when developers are not granted the right to be humans who make mistakes and adapt to reality by revising their paths forward and experiment in freedom, they will not be open to expose themselves to those who demand, dictate, criticize and only accept "perfection".

 

You see, that's exactly why "communicate more" and "more transparancy" will not work. The devs have probably learnt the lesson that it's safest to be silent and not talk about anything that actually isn't ready to talk about yet. That big can of worms simply takes to much time to handle.

 

Why is that so difficult to understand?

 

Fsus4, I don't expect the devs to be social workers here in the forum. They don't have to give answers to each and everybody, and don't have to care for all things. The origin question of this thread was "devs what are you working on ?". Additional questions would be "devs is feature X,Y,Z  on or not on the list the next year / next two year ?". Or "will the Script API support UNDO behaviour in the next release ?",  Or "when will we receive the next bugfix version ?". Etc..

 

They could answer all of this questions without risk. They could publish it on the homepage. They wouldn't loose time. No big can of worms. And a lot of discussions and speculations would come to an end. And people could better decide if it's worth to wait, or better look for another solution / DAW . That would be much better than the current situation.


Edited by Airmann, 22 December 2016 - 00:33.

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#81 Fsus4

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Posted 22 December 2016 - 00:47

Fsus4, I don't expect the devs to be social workers here in the forum. They don't have to give answers to each and everybody, and don't have to care for all things. The origin question of this thread was "devs what are you working on ?". Additional questions would be "devs is feature X,Y,Z  on or not on the list the next year / next two year ?". Or "will the Script API support UNDO behaviour in the next release ?",  Or "when will we receive the next bugfix version ?". Etc..

 

They could answer all of this questions without risk. They could publish it on the homepage. They wouldn't loose time. No big can of worms. And a lot of discussions and speculations would come to an end. And people could better decide if it's worth to wait, or better look for another solution / DAW . That would be much better than the current situation.

 

But they probably can't answer if features XYZ are on the list for the next two years. They probably don't even have such a roadmap and an yearly todo list where they work off feature after feature. Heck, even the renoise.com domain isn't registerered for several years ahead, it expires in a few months and needs to be renewed.



#82 Airmann

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Posted 22 December 2016 - 01:13

But they probably can't answer if features XYZ are on the list for the next two years. They probably don't even have such a roadmap and an yearly todo list where they work off feature after feature. Heck, even the renoise.com domain isn't registerered for several years ahead, it expires in a few months and needs to be renewed.

 

No ? I guess they decide each monday morning what to do next, right ?

 

Come on !!! Of course they have plans and concepts. And they definitely know what they are working on and what will 100% come next, or 100% won't come. At least they could tell us that. And if a feature is 50:50 or not safe, they don't have to tell. But they also could say: we work on this feature xyz, but we're not sure if it will come.


Edited by Airmann, 22 December 2016 - 01:13.

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#83 ffx

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Posted 22 December 2016 - 02:23

But they told us now: There will be no changes for Renoise for about the next whole year or even longer. Only a bugfix release will come and you can read in the forum, what was fixed. I except that bugfix release in march 2017. So accept it and save your energy now.  Better to know nothing will come than to know simply nothing. They are working on something not Renoise and Redux related.  Maybe it's not even audio related. Maybe it's a synth? Nah... :)  Maybe the Renoise fx as VST?  I would guess the last one. Would make sense, and "Renoise maybe will profit from it later". 


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#84 Chris Edberg

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Posted 22 December 2016 - 02:57

No ? I guess they decide each monday morning what to do next, right ?

 

Come on !!! Of course they have plans and concepts. And they definitely know what they are working on and what will 100% come next, or 100% won't come. At least they could tell us that. And if a feature is 50:50 or not safe, they don't have to tell. But they also could say: we work on this feature xyz, but we're not sure if it will come.

 

 

I agree. "Afraid to disappoint" users is of course not the real issue here. It's a matter of communication.

 

But, with the risk of being repetitive;

The "customer-ethic" matter aside, they really don't have to do this since their business plan works anyway. This is due to lack of worthy rivals. So.. It's up to us to either accept the circumstances or crowdfund a new similar DAW.

 

But they told us now: There will be no changes for Renoise for about the next whole year or even longer. Only a bugfix release will come and you can read in the forum, what was fixed. I except that bugfix release in march 2017. So accept it and save your energy now.  Better to know nothing will come than to know simply nothing. They are working on something not Renoise and Redux related.  Maybe it's not even audio related. Maybe it's a synth? Nah... :)  Maybe the Renoise fx as VST?  I would guess the last one. Would make sense, and "Renoise maybe will profit from it later". 

 

If I'm not mistaken, the reason the criticism is popping up now and then is due to lack of official statements. Meaning, the lack of frequent website news / blog posts. It's not generally expected that everyone that buy the software will delve themselves into each topic in the forum for important status reports.

 

Moreover, if there won't be much more work with Renoise, then I suppose we could say that the criticism / statements from various users that Renoise is dead is at least semi-correct. Let's be real, even for a niche company with an unique feature, a small bugfix over a whole year indicates that Renoise has a major downpriority.

 

Then, about that little comment in the forum of something that "could benefit Renoise / Redux". That's just some vague talk that could be interpreted in different ways. Sure, positive attitude is a winning concept, like you have and I don't blame you. But to me it just sounds sketchy.

 

I'm also happy with both Renoise & Redux together with Logic. No solution is exactly great though. I just don't wanna wait another 10 years for some features. Life is short and I hope there will be some solution, and I'm open to whatever that is. Whether it be some suprise Renoise announcements or some news for a new similar software with more enthusiastic developers.


Edited by Chris Edberg, 22 December 2016 - 02:58.

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#85 mystical&magical

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Posted 22 December 2016 - 06:17

Good topic but strange content..

 

I'm absolutely satisfied with Renoise as it is, even if NOTHING changes and it stays as it is. Sure, there is a wishlist and I also mentioned sometime some improvements I'd love to see but that is nothing dramatic not to have them yet cuz Renoise is unique and neardy, freaky and awesome as it already is. It is something different and I love different things. A tool for audio freaks and sound designers. I do not really need anything else than being able to update to future OS. 



#86 Andrey Marchenko

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Posted 22 December 2016 - 08:00

I'll just leave my video here.... And if someone still thinking that everything fine with Renoise.... OoooKkkkkk... 

 


Edited by Andrey Marchenko, 22 December 2016 - 08:09.

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#87 joule

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Posted 22 December 2016 - 08:55

I'll just leave my video here.... And if someone still thinking that everything fine with Renoise.... OoooKkkkkk...

 
A.) Are you implying that "everything is fine" with Reaper? ... It doesn't have a chord track like Cubase, so how can it be fine? (or a pattern editor like Renoise, for that matter).
 
B.) This topic seem to prove that taktik would be sensible to stick to the nothing-to-tell policy. It's obvious that people will not be more satisfied the more information that is given, and a public roadmap would most likely stir up havoc on the forums :)

Edited by joule, 22 December 2016 - 08:56.

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#88 Andrey Marchenko

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Posted 22 December 2016 - 09:13

Chord Track - Is not essential in production. It's just a lazy tool. But Automation - yes. Automation drawing and a whole mixing process in Renoise lacks in every aspect of modern standards. And you know it. 


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#89 joule

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Posted 22 December 2016 - 09:33

Why should mixing tools be everyones priority?

 

It's pretty obvious that mixing is not the forte in Renoise. Just like Cubase is a better compositional tool than Reaper. Personally, I like the fact that devs don't have a lot of mixing features that takes time maintaining, and that the software has other focuses.

 

Renoise is a different paradigm, so it's pretty useless referring to "modern standards". You could argue that a piano roll should have the highest priority, using that premise.



#90 magickz

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Posted 22 December 2016 - 09:34

This topic is an excellent example for wasted time and energy.  :w00t:  keeping the focus constantly on problems and on what's missing, seldom brings solutions.

 

 

And Andrey, how can a video of a licenced Reaper and a 190$ synth prove, that something in Renoise is missing that costs maybe only 30% or less?

 

Where ever I look around in Reaper, I cannot find the damn beloved tracker view. :-) So, both seem to miss something. The answer is: they are just two different pairs of shoes. You are free to choose them according to your task and according to your preferred workflow.

 

When my neighbour demonstrates his new Mercedes Benz, I never come to the conclusion that something at my bicycle is missing - still I am much faster travelling and finding parking lots everywhere in the city instantly, but not with the big car with leather seats, GPS navigation and whatever. The opposite is the case, I feel amused when I see long queues of cars in front of the parking decks still waiting for their slot, while I already finished what I had to do in the city and can ride back home. But on the highway (where I never travel, because I choose public train transport for longer distances), maybe I'd rather miss the leather seats.  

 

Everything is relative  :drummer:


Edited by magickz, 22 December 2016 - 09:35.

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#91 magickz

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Posted 22 December 2016 - 10:27

I think the whole life is full of workarounds. And we have the choice to accept it, or be unhappy with it. The good news is, that there's a solution for almost everything.

 

For me it would be no problem at all to create in one app that I regard as better for creation, and mix in the other app that seems to be better for mixing, if I think it is really necessary.

 

Some people here seem to wish something that we call in German "eierlegende Wollmilchsau" (=egglaying wool milk pig?).  ^_^

 

220px-Wollmilchsau.jpg

https://de.wikipedia...de_Wollmilchsau



#92 Andrey Marchenko

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Posted 22 December 2016 - 10:38

 

And Andrey, how can a video of a licenced Reaper and a 190$ synth prove, that something in Renoise is missing that costs maybe only 30% or less?

 

THIS VIDEO ABOUT AUTOMATION, FOLKS! :))))))))))



#93 magickz

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Posted 22 December 2016 - 10:42

Another story, in the graphics industry you have the choice to either rent a subscription based software that costs a lot every year - but also provides much more features than you ever need -, or you want to be free of subscriptions and go to the competition, and in some cases can expect update costs of 200-300 Euro every year, for just a few minor improvements. Compared to this situation, I am really more than happy about how Renoise handles it.



#94 Andrey Marchenko

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Posted 22 December 2016 - 10:46

Another story, in the graphics industry you have the choice to either rent a subscription based software that costs a lot every year - but also provides much more features than you ever need -, or you want to be free of subscriptions and go to the competition, and in some cases can expect update costs of 200-300 Euro every year, for just a few minor improvements. Compared to this situation, I am really more than happy about how Renoise handles it.

 

Oh really? ;) Welcome! 49$ software that blows away Adobe. 

 

https://affinity.serif.com/en-us/



#95 ffx

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Posted 22 December 2016 - 10:48

no new feature will come. No core improvement. Yes, sometimes renoise is a pain. But also a really nice software still. and the best tracker we have.

End of discussion. Thread is closed.
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#96 magickz

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Posted 22 December 2016 - 10:55

Thread was closed already since the answer to the initial question was given in Post #2 :-)


Yes, Serif looks not bad, but it cannot blow away Adobe, as a professional publishing company we must use it for compatibility reasons (data exchange with the rest of the industry). Another reason is, you can easily find Adobe experts, if you need to employ or exchange people in the team.

 

On the job I use Adobe, at home I use mostly products of Corel+Smith Micro - and Adobe (the company licence) :-).


Edited by magickz, 22 December 2016 - 10:58.


#97 ffx

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Posted 22 December 2016 - 11:57

Adobe is the most complete software, but also a horror show regarding performance, workflow and memory usage. It's a mess. I just had to write this!

Renoise on the other hand is lightweight, fast loading and also sexy to look at.


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#98 Woodpecking Mantis

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Posted 22 December 2016 - 15:11

May I post a picture, edited in photoshop, of a cat using a wacom pen while it's listening at a Audition rendered track made in Renoise on a windows platform through his Senheiser headphones. And notice I avoided mentioning that Glitch 2 is actualy at 50%...

 

Still in the thread's subject. Devs. are working on a VR Universal Creation Environment Platform, but with both subscription and one time paid model.



#99 ffx

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Posted 22 December 2016 - 15:23

There is a mistake on the webpage: it says "what s New" and then lists a lot of features....
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#100 Fsus4

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Posted 22 December 2016 - 16:14

No ? I guess they decide each monday morning what to do next, right ?

 

Come on !!! Of course they have plans and concepts. And they definitely know what they are working on and what will 100% come next, or 100% won't come. At least they could tell us that. And if a feature is 50:50 or not safe, they don't have to tell. But they also could say: we work on this feature xyz, but we're not sure if it will come.

 

Let's remind ourselves what taktik wrote back in May 2013:

 

 


Some people here start to get nervous and wonder if we are actually working on a new release or not. Don't worry, of course we are. Just takes a little bit longer this time.

Can't give you any details about the final feature set here now though. We do keep the content and status of internal (and alpha) releases private for two good reasons:
first, because the best surprises are those you don't expect (Renoise releases should be like Christmas), and second, to avoid discussions about features in progress we actually haven't implemented yet and thus can not make any promises about yet. If we promise that release X.Y will contain feature Z, and it actually can't be realized or we don't want to keep it because it turned out to not be what we hoped it could be, this will only result into disappointment on the user side and a lot of stress on our side.


Only thing I can reveal here now is that it will be Renoise 3.0 and its new features probably will be a bit unexpected for many. We took the time to experiment with a few things. Revised them a lot. Thrown away large parts of it again because we haven't been fully happy with them, and partly started from scratch.
Some of those features also required rewriting large parts of the codebase; with Renoise getting bigger and more complex internally, new features also will take longer to realize with every new release. And hey, we're a small team too. We don't have a big bunch of people working off feature after feature and actuall also don't want to work this way.


So please be a little bit patient. Next news will be the official beta announcement for 3.0. Also can't promise when exactly this will be. It's ready when it's ready. And it's ready, when we are happy with it and not because some financial department says that it has to be ready. That's a very luxury way of working but I hope also a way of working many of you can acknowledge.

So, stay tuned. In the meanwhile, enjoy Renoise 2.8 wink.gif          

Source:  http://forum.renoise...lease/?p=293449

 

*) The underscores and bolds were added here by me to further highlight certain aspects of this message.

 

Now taktik is pretty clear here in his communication IMO. The way the devs work is to experiment, revise, throw away large parts, partly starting from scratch again, rewriting large parts of the codebase, etc. And they wish to avoid discussions about features and concepts because of the way they need to work: if something is started and later down the road decided to be thrown away, it will result in a lot of stress for the devs if any previous information about those features and concepts is still living a life on its own among the users. They are not working off feature after feature and also don't want to work this way. Also they don't want to establish deadlines when something needs to be ready (i.e. time scheduled roadmaps), they'll have something ready when it's realized in a way they're happy with.

 

So there you have it. Couldn't be any clearer.


Edited by Fsus4, 22 December 2016 - 16:15.

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